Think I was getting near with 345whp on my fwd civic, another 100whp and I don't think it would have been as fun to drive.
A 252bhp radical SR3 can lap Snetterton in 1.09(quick google search!), they weigh bugger all and have a very low CoG. I think it would be quicker than most if not all the Time Attack class cars round Snetterton, even more so on the less 'power' tracks.
When is too much power just too much......
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James Breadvan
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ScoobieWRX
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With 450+bhp at the wheels maybe they should start grading tyres by the amount of BHP they can handle as ultimately they are the last bit of the drivetrain that is physically in contact with the tarmac and directly responsible for outright grip.
Here's another question to add to this equation....
what sort of tarmac is best....
Super Smooth and shiny or slighty abrasive. Some circuits i've been to seem to have this super shiny tarmac that looks to have little or no grip, and airfields with abrasive tarmac/concrete that sem to have plenty of grip.
Any thoughts on that too?
Here's another question to add to this equation....
what sort of tarmac is best....
Super Smooth and shiny or slighty abrasive. Some circuits i've been to seem to have this super shiny tarmac that looks to have little or no grip, and airfields with abrasive tarmac/concrete that sem to have plenty of grip.
Any thoughts on that too?
Buggers cancelled my op just a couple of days before it was due. Inconsiderate barstewards!! 
Waiting now for another execution date!!:headhack:
Waiting now for another execution date!!:headhack:
Please ignore rant below, but I am in a bad mood after work and this is one of those pet hate topics! it is like a red rag to a bull for me.
Peak power means nothing other than top speed. Track times and how good it is to drive depends on what car it is in and if the power can be used. Weight, handling and tyres all make up more than the maximum power coming from the engine. If you assume all cars are equal then power delivery, response and driveability still mean much more than the peak number.
My r1 track bike has just 160hp peak, and accelerates to almost 150mph in 10seconds. But on most tracks my old 118hp Elise S2, weighing 4 times more will soon lap it because it can out corner or brake it with 4 larger contact patches. My Silvia probably has close to 3 times that much power, not much more weight, and even bigger tyre contact areas. But it is slower in almost every use because it can not do everything else as well.
All 3 are fun to drive on the track for very different reasons though.
Peak power means nothing other than top speed. Track times and how good it is to drive depends on what car it is in and if the power can be used. Weight, handling and tyres all make up more than the maximum power coming from the engine. If you assume all cars are equal then power delivery, response and driveability still mean much more than the peak number.
My r1 track bike has just 160hp peak, and accelerates to almost 150mph in 10seconds. But on most tracks my old 118hp Elise S2, weighing 4 times more will soon lap it because it can out corner or brake it with 4 larger contact patches. My Silvia probably has close to 3 times that much power, not much more weight, and even bigger tyre contact areas. But it is slower in almost every use because it can not do everything else as well.
All 3 are fun to drive on the track for very different reasons though.
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Bladerider
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Too much power is too much when the meatsack behind the wheel doesnt realise that the throttle isnt digital yet !!!
I would happily drive the same car with 400bhp or 1000bhp in the dry or the rain and I doubt the results would be that different once you have had time to acclimatise. I would echo Robs comments on the delivery side of the power though, which is much more relevent than the actual output, which is why alot of people say that 1000bhp might not be so useful. However a good example was Rocket Ron who managed to coax phenomenal performance from a fundamentally standard R33 with 700bhp round the tight TOTB course. If grip, handling, and all other factors were the same, but power was limited for example a 1000bhp Evo with the boost controller turned off then I would expect that same car to be quicker once full boost and power was restored.
If you want to take this to ultimates...........F1 spends its whole time reducing the power of the cars and fundamentally the cars get quicker despite the tracks being made slower with extra chicanes etc. If the "500bhp is more than enough" rule was applied then clearly they wouldnt need to do this in order to stop the risk of accidents becoming huge. If they were suddenly allowed to have 1500bhp and full electronics gizmos then the cars would be eye wateringly fast, but the difference between hero and zero would be just as eye wateringly small and more accidents would happen. It doesnt mean you cant use the performance, just that it takes more skill. In which case the thread should be "What power level should each person be trusted with on track" which is a pointless and impossible to answer question anyways !!
J.
I would happily drive the same car with 400bhp or 1000bhp in the dry or the rain and I doubt the results would be that different once you have had time to acclimatise. I would echo Robs comments on the delivery side of the power though, which is much more relevent than the actual output, which is why alot of people say that 1000bhp might not be so useful. However a good example was Rocket Ron who managed to coax phenomenal performance from a fundamentally standard R33 with 700bhp round the tight TOTB course. If grip, handling, and all other factors were the same, but power was limited for example a 1000bhp Evo with the boost controller turned off then I would expect that same car to be quicker once full boost and power was restored.
If you want to take this to ultimates...........F1 spends its whole time reducing the power of the cars and fundamentally the cars get quicker despite the tracks being made slower with extra chicanes etc. If the "500bhp is more than enough" rule was applied then clearly they wouldnt need to do this in order to stop the risk of accidents becoming huge. If they were suddenly allowed to have 1500bhp and full electronics gizmos then the cars would be eye wateringly fast, but the difference between hero and zero would be just as eye wateringly small and more accidents would happen. It doesnt mean you cant use the performance, just that it takes more skill. In which case the thread should be "What power level should each person be trusted with on track" which is a pointless and impossible to answer question anyways !!
J.
I have issues !!! 
....I used to be average, now I reminisce !!!
....I used to be average, now I reminisce !!!-
ScoobieWRX
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I don't entirely agree with what you've said Bladey. I think every car has it's point of too much power.
Forget Formula1 as none of us drive spaceframe or monocoque chassis cars and as for Rocket Ron and his 900bhp Evo, i've seen that car trying to do quick 0-60's and 1/8 times and it's been beaten by lesser bhp cars because they put their power down better. It's squirms around like a goodun until it finds some grip and then it takes off, but it's not until then that it proves shedloads of horses gives you those 9s qtr mile times.
I think it doesn't matter how good a driver you are behind the wheel, you may have the best handling car in the world if it only ran 500/600bhp but start to put any more through it and it starts to become a rolling nightmare to get around a track quickly.
I think every car has it's limit of how good you can get it to handle, and i don't think there's any point having shedloads of power if you have to constantly modulate the power output via your right foot just to get it to go straight in a straight line.
Surely just enough power for the handling will get you round quicker rather than doouble what you need and you're constantly having to make adjustments all the way around rather than just get on with it and put your foot down.
In my opinion a lightweight Scooby or Evo with just enough bhp and best handling possible will get round quicker than the same car with an extra 40/50% more power.
My example is the Powerstation/Litchfield Imports Scooby that won Time Attack series in 2006. I think it had something like 600bhp and it beat other bigger budget cars with much more horsepower. Their idea at that time was to have a lightweight car with superior handling and just enough horsepower to make it blisteringly quick.
It did the job and i'm sure the driver had something to do with it
Forget Formula1 as none of us drive spaceframe or monocoque chassis cars and as for Rocket Ron and his 900bhp Evo, i've seen that car trying to do quick 0-60's and 1/8 times and it's been beaten by lesser bhp cars because they put their power down better. It's squirms around like a goodun until it finds some grip and then it takes off, but it's not until then that it proves shedloads of horses gives you those 9s qtr mile times.
I think it doesn't matter how good a driver you are behind the wheel, you may have the best handling car in the world if it only ran 500/600bhp but start to put any more through it and it starts to become a rolling nightmare to get around a track quickly.
I think every car has it's limit of how good you can get it to handle, and i don't think there's any point having shedloads of power if you have to constantly modulate the power output via your right foot just to get it to go straight in a straight line.
Surely just enough power for the handling will get you round quicker rather than doouble what you need and you're constantly having to make adjustments all the way around rather than just get on with it and put your foot down.
In my opinion a lightweight Scooby or Evo with just enough bhp and best handling possible will get round quicker than the same car with an extra 40/50% more power.
My example is the Powerstation/Litchfield Imports Scooby that won Time Attack series in 2006. I think it had something like 600bhp and it beat other bigger budget cars with much more horsepower. Their idea at that time was to have a lightweight car with superior handling and just enough horsepower to make it blisteringly quick.
It did the job and i'm sure the driver had something to do with it
Buggers cancelled my op just a couple of days before it was due. Inconsiderate barstewards!!
Waiting now for another execution date!!:headhack:
Waiting now for another execution date!!:headhack:
Some good points there Bladey.Blonderider wrote:Too much power is too much when the meatsack behind the wheel doesnt realise that the throttle isnt digital yet !!!
I would happily drive the same car with 400bhp or 1000bhp in the dry or the rain and I doubt the results would be that different once you have had time to acclimatise. I would echo Robs comments on the delivery side of the power though, which is much more relevant than the actual output, which is why a lot of people say that 1000bhp might not be so useful. However a good example was Rocket Ron who managed to coax phenomenal performance from a fundamentally standard R33 with 700bhp round the tight TOTB course. If grip, handling, and all other factors were the same, but power was limited for example a 1000bhp Evo with the boost controller turned off then I would expect that same car to be quicker once full boost and power was restored.
If you want to take this to ultimates...........F1 spends its whole time reducing the power of the cars and fundamentally the cars get quicker despite the tracks being made slower with extra chicanes etc. If the "500bhp is more than enough" rule was applied then clearly they would need to do this in order to stop the risk of accidents becoming huge. If they were suddenly allowed to have 1500bhp and full electronics gizmos then the cars would be eye wateringly fast, but the difference between hero and zero would be just as eye wateringly small and more accidents would happen. It doesnt mean you cant use the performance, just that it takes more skill. In which case the thread should be "What power level should each person be trusted with on track" which is a pointless and impossible to answer question anyways !!
J.
My point is more to do with the spec/turbo that delivers your power.
I think its fair to say you would get a more drivable/rounded car with a GT30 pushing 2bar maxed out than a GT42 at 0.5bar or what ever it would take. Both cars would have the same *peak* bhp but would be totally different to drive, and undoubtedly the GT30 car will have a better spread of power, be more drivable and ultimately quicker.
There is no point specing a car then running it at 50%.
yagshamash!
The fact that the lichfields car was the only one with a Pro driver probably had more to do with it.
With regards to handling, we are not even scratching the surface of how well a car can handle with our compromise boxes. Mine has had quite a bit of attention there, but there is still so much more available to improve handling without even considering aero devices to force better grip.
No such thing as too much power if the car handles right.
With regards to handling, we are not even scratching the surface of how well a car can handle with our compromise boxes. Mine has had quite a bit of attention there, but there is still so much more available to improve handling without even considering aero devices to force better grip.
No such thing as too much power if the car handles right.
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ScoobieWRX
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