A question for Maxx

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Maxx
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Post by Maxx »

Guys,

So sorry, have completely missed this thread. In fact, I missed the whole forum! you must think I'm really ignorant. :oops:

Sounds daft but it's true, I can only see down to the 3rd item in the technical section without scrolling down, and, as i'm not particularly "mechanically" technical i've never scrolled down .. Doh!

I've also been fairly infrequent in my visits, I enjoy this forum but only dip in every few days when not working/racing and i've been pretty busy with both recently.

I have another early start and long day tomorrow and am racing Saturday so I promise I'll do a proper reply to this on Sunday at the latest, tomorrow if I get the time.
It really needs me to read things thoroughly and post thoughtfully rather than dash something out quick and I Have to get some zz's now or i'll lose valuable 10ths on Saturday :)

Apologies again guys.

BBS

Maxx

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Post by Maxx »

Right, lets get back to this and again apologies for having missed it at the time. In fact, the only reason I "found" it was that Duncan (Dynamix) asked me via PM if I would post a few "articles" on this forum about driving techniques similar to what he had read on other forums. I said I'd love and I will, maybe a little sporadic as it's busy season for me at the moment but look for those in the coming weeks.

To answer the initial question and bring in some other comments on subsequent posts ... As James (jdening) said, trackdays and racing are very different and there are people in both camps that have no desire to do the other, and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure the average trackday driver wouldn't be very happy if they only got about 30 minutes driving for their

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Stuart
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Post by Stuart »

Thanks for that Maxx.

One of the decisions that I have made since my original post is to switch cars again. My GTR is too expensive for me to sling around with gay abandon regularly (my repair bills from a very average year of the odd trackday, three quarter miles, one drift practice day and a trip to the Nurburgring could have bought me a very respectable race car) so I have resurrected my old Sierra, purpose built for looning about on the cheap. The other advantage of me using this car is that it will force me to work harder to be 'quick'. It is not blessed with 400plus horsepower, more like 160, so the amount of speed I can maintain around a circuit is more down to me and less down just my right foot. I'm sure a more talented driver with an unlimited budget could be a lot quicker than I am, but that's life. I have to learn to cut my cloth as it were.

The other added benefit of going back to basics is that with the financial fear removed I'm hoping to get back to really enjoying the simple things about driving fast. Time will tell.

Your point about 'club' days as opposed to the normal ones, I feel, is spot on. The atmosphere at our day in February was so good, largely due to the format of having the place to ourselves I think.

I am hoping that with Snettertons/MSV's scheduled reworking planned for 2008 onwards, we will see the return of a local race school of some kind. I know a few lads that have done the Clio race training and they found it to have been of huge benefit in terms of experience.

Lastly and potentially off topic, what do you think of the Don Palmer style days? Duncan and I looked at it not long ago but the lack of information about the sorts of work involved on the day and the costs were a delaying factor. It's one of those things that I will do, but I don't feel the inclination to do that instead of the equivalent number of track days......am I missing the point?

Feel free to PM me if you don't want to divert the thread :D
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Post by Maxx »

Stuart,

I think you made a very good decision with the Sierra. Obviously, being members of a forum claled Big Power you are going to want to own a powerful car and occasionally get to use it to it's full but, as you have found, this can be hugely expensive and whilst great fun is perhaps not the best car to learn driving technique (but hey, there is more to life than learning driving technique but I guess, if your reaidng this forum, it must interest you).

Some basic learning could actually save you wear & tear and money as i'm contantly surprised at how drivers are seduced to the dark side of late and very hard braking. In racing, we simply don't do it unless we are deliberately trying to outbrake an opponent. Proper braking technique gives faster lap time with less wear & tear .. stop there and get back on topic!

Well, on to your off topic. Don Palmer. I've worked with Don and consider him a friend but he frustrates the hell out of most people and he's been close to being punched on more than one occasion. Firstly, he really knows his stuff and can really drive a car, the frustration lies in his coahing technique which follows very strictly the principals of NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming). If you've never heard of it then it's waaaaaaaaaaay to complexed to explain here. In a very, very, very simplistic nutshell it involved telling you nothing but putting you in a position where, with a bit of luck and an hour or two, you'll discover it for yourself. That really is a bit simplistic and my tone sounds quite negative but it's a valid coaching principle for everything in life (most life is actually like this anyway). It's big in business and thats were I learnt all about it and used some of it's principles when I thought appropriate, I also do use some of it's principles in track/race driver coaching if I think they'll get the point over better than the numerous other methods. The thing is I like to go to battle with more than one weapon, if I meet a foe with full bosy armour my knife or gun or bow are no use but my poison gas will work a treat. Don just takes his gun but he is a very expert shot with it and will most time get you in the eye :)

One area where Don is flexible is tailoring the content to suite your needs (where possible) thats why there is very little structure or itinerary to his courses. I do think that good track driving is a combinaation of guided, commented and explained ON-TRACK driving and exercise based stuff but it's also important to introduce those at the right time. If not they can be much less effective and at worse, counter-productive. If the first thing you do is learn to drift then thats often counter-productive to you learning to hold a car, stable at/close to the limit.

Oddly, this has tuned slightly into what I was just going to post anyway about the upcoming "Technique" posts I plan to do so we'll leave it there.

Hope I've not put you off Don, most folks I've seen do come away with some new distinctions and, if they don't get too frustrated with Don's style, they do have a great day. If you do book him, make it clear what you hope to get out of the course and remind him of that during the day.

Maxx

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Post by Stuart »

Excellent.
It was the NLP that I was eluding to. I have read about the theory and in honesty think I would prefer a simpler style of instruction, just incase the coin doesn't drop...........me?? slow on the uptake? :)

You certainly haven't put me off, but it has given me more to consider before I book my instruction.
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Maxx
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Post by Maxx »

Stuart,

Another option is this : http://www.carlimits.com/ run my Andy Walsh. I've no experience of the days but have heard good things. I know Andy, again a very knowledgable fella but with a much more direct approach. If you book tell him I sent you :)

There was a thread about this on PH, here it is : http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topi ... 61&i=0&hm=

Many of those they speak of are more road based driving instructors, some skills based but none (from what I know) offer the same sort of stuff as Don or Andy.

Thing also to remember is that almost any instructor worth the title should be able to show you some skills and give you a rewarding day and therefore will get a good review from someone. If you want it to stick you need to find out why (something works) and generate some emotion about when it goes right or when you finally "get it".

Maxx

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Post by Maxx »

I was converting this video in the background whilst replying to this thread earlier, it's of my race yesterday in the LMA Euro Saloons at Rockingham and thought i'd extract the 1st lap and post it to YouTube so you could get a feel for racing versus trackday.

In fact it doesn't go anywhere near to getting it across really, there are as many cars behind me as in front and i'm having to keep my eyes on both as well as contend with cold tyres etc. I'm in a Civic Type R, not highly tuned as it's an endurance car (will be racing in it for the 24hr Britcar race at Silverstone in Sept) but great fun. Pictures not great I'm afraid as it was such a sunny day it's hard to see the track sometimes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8sX2TX5m4I

Maxx

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Post by mike-payne »

Maxx wrote:Stuart,

Another option is this : http://www.carlimits.com/ run my Andy Walsh. I've no experience of the days but have heard good things. I know Andy, again a very knowledgable fella but with a much more direct approach. If you book tell him I sent you :)

There was a thread about this on PH, here it is : http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topi ... 61&i=0&hm=

Many of those they speak of are more road based driving instructors, some skills based but none (from what I know) offer the same sort of stuff as Don or Andy.

Thing also to remember is that almost any instructor worth the title should be able to show you some skills and give you a rewarding day and therefore will get a good review from someone. If you want it to stick you need to find out why (something works) and generate some emotion about when it goes right or when you finally "get it".

Maxx
Andy is great and will definetly push you in all apsects. If you attend his track day training in france, you won't regret it..... i left very depressed after.... because i suddenly realised how bad a circuit driver i was... however after time and a track day 4 days later, i sudenly relised how good all the techniques he taught me were. How bad the other track day drivers are and how much my driving had improved. The only problem with Andy is he is nearly always fully booked!!!!
I wish i could spend a day with him every month, as after a year i'm sure my abilities would improved 10 fold if not more.

Stuart as to racing and track days.... i've felt the same as you, in that i wanted to do something competitive. That's why i entered timeattack. No other dirvers to worry about, but still an unbelieveabkle amount of pressure to try and achieve a good result. Your result relies entirely on your abilities and the power of the car of course... but if you read between the lines of car power etc. then you can easily tell how your placed. hence being extremely happy with my 6th, as i see that as 2nd versus equivelent car.
Take regular exercise, walk to you car!

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