Methanol

Technical discussions
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duncan
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Post by duncan »

Quote from a well respected Subaru mapper (Pat the Map)
IIRC, methanol is about 50% oxygen by weight. So if you add 10% by weight to the fuel you're running you'de have 5% by weight oxygen. All things being equal you might expect to see another 5% power, but of course if you're knock limited to start with, the octane number improvement from the methanol will permit you to run closer to MBT and thus improve thermal efficiency, thus realising >5% increase in power.
Another Subaru mapper (Andy Forest) says:
I have found that adding up to 10% methanol will increase power, improve the safety threshhold to detonation and have zero effect on EGT.
It primarily depends on how lean the car has been mapped on petrol as to how well it responds to a methanol mix. If its on the edge with petrol it will not like the additional leaning out experienced when adding methanol.
If Bob mapped your car then he knows your set up and you are right to follow his advice in this case.
Generally any std factory map car or any of the cars I have mapped will make immediate and safe gains by adding 10% methanol. Specific remapping will pull another few bhp but then you are resigned to continuous use of that mix.
It seems to be used regularly by top uk subaru tuners:

Bob Rawle
Paul Blamire from Zen Performance
Andy Forest
Simon (aka Jolly Green Monster)
Zak @ Mocom

All adding around 10% mix to the tank before filling up or 1 gallon to make it easy. This is for track or drag use rather than everyday use afaik

Lloyd@JRD
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Post by Lloyd@JRD »

I thought that you use methanol Scott?

sdminus
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Post by sdminus »

I do use methanol.
But i know what im doing with it.

Scott

I have used it for about 2 years
"You think you have a limit, As soon you touch this limit, something happens to you; suddenly you can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct and your experience as well, you can fly very high."

sdminus
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Post by sdminus »

http://www.geocities.com/sdminus/index. ... 1874216342
Check out this data which i compiled a year ago for aquamist.

Look how the afr's change with tiny amounts of methanol.

this is just 300cc/1 of extra fuel which is 11 % methanol to pump fuel.

stoich would be 13.1722:1 to be precise.
but i have remoived no fuel. only added

Scott
"You think you have a limit, As soon you touch this limit, something happens to you; suddenly you can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct and your experience as well, you can fly very high."

sdminus
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Post by sdminus »

I understand what they are doing but its not really advisable to do so if you dont know what you are doing. It will bite you in the ass one way or the other in the end

Scott
"You think you have a limit, As soon you touch this limit, something happens to you; suddenly you can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct and your experience as well, you can fly very high."

sdminus
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Post by sdminus »

It seems that some people are strugling to grasp this subject. So i will make an attempt to explain.

You should all under stand what stoich is.
petrol is 14.7:1
methanol 6.4:1
ethanol 9.0:1
e85 10:1
nitromethane 2.1:1

The first number ie 14 is the amount fo air in the ratio. The :1 part is the part fuel.

So 14.7:1 is stoich. 10:1 would be rich 19:1 would be lean

When the fuel map is created in the ecu of your car the type of fuel is set in stone ( there is no getting around this )

If you were to compare petrol to the other mixes it would pan out like so :

You will need an additional

Methanol 2.1 times the fuel capacity
e85 1.5 time the capacity
nitromethane LOL. you dont even want to know. Something like a fule pump from a 747. a nitro car burns about
"You think you have a limit, As soon you touch this limit, something happens to you; suddenly you can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct and your experience as well, you can fly very high."

borgue
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Post by borgue »

shurvington and rice would be proud. :wink:

Richf
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Post by Richf »

What a great thread!!

I dabbled with methanol with my bikes many years ago i ran a 10% mix at the end of the season on my turbo bike , we fitted the biggest fuel jet i had in the carb and still lost all the electrodes off the plugs by the end of the track:)

I've been considering running methanol as the enrichment fuel for my nitrous to make the most of the cooling effect, a mate did this to great effect on his dragbike

Currently i've placed a three temp senders an underbonnet temp, intake temp and plenum temp, and i'm logging things to see whether charge temp is really an issue for me , at the moment charge temps are a lot lower than the intake temp , be interesting to see how that changes on a hot day.

I've spoken to a few of my tuner mates about methanol and water injection and they arent convinced of any benefits

sdminus
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Post by sdminus »

I have been tuning with water injection or methanol for 2 years. There are a few subtle differance when you play with methanol. But as long as you are aware of the facts you cant go wrong with it.

I will give you some examples or gains with water/methanol

Evo 9 tuned with petrol to the max and then with methanol injection. managed a huge increase of boost and a 100 ft tq increase

Fc3s Rx7 normally restricted to below 20 psi of boost on pump fuel. now running 27 psi with next to 0 knock. running off the turbo compressor map

My own car runing bottled water from tesco running 13.5:1 at 1.2 bar of boost with the same or lower knock than petrol at 10 psi. egt was stable

My own car running methanol lighting up 255 rear tires in the dry as it comes into boost in 3rd gear ( methanol and tq go hand in hand)

JCB bonniville top speed car. only able to reach 550bhp before egts became to hot to carry on. With water it achieved 750bhp with a lower egt than at 550bhp eventually rupturing the intercooler core at 65psi of boost. the water removed 120KW of heat from the motor.

My own car running -20 deg C below ambiant. I have actually had -22deg C on a 20 deg C day

ferrari F1 in the 80's suspended water into there race fuel in an attempt to run more power. Later on ferrari appeared in front of the FIA for adding water. They used a dish of water and a lighter to prove that water is not a fuel but it was over ruled and water injection was banned from F1

Top drag cars running with no water pump and still crossing the line @ 70 deg C water temps

I could go on and on !

Scott
"You think you have a limit, As soon you touch this limit, something happens to you; suddenly you can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct and your experience as well, you can fly very high."

Richf
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Post by Richf »

I need to look more into this, any good books on the subject???

A tuner friend who races 7 second streetbikes actually said to me "I only put things in the engine that add power or lubricate , water does neither" and refers to water injection systems as an Aquamyth :):)

I'm not convinced inlet temps are an issue for me as i use nos, but I'm guessing that i could benefit from having a bit more ignition advance if i ran WI/MI on that basis alone is WI likely to be worthwhile ??

I'm on the limit of my headgasket as far as boost levels go so i cant really run anymore (safely)

A good friend of mine runs a supercharged Suzuki drag bike running injected methanol (home built) and at the end of the 1/4 mile the whole inlet side of the engine is frosted. Mind you his engine oil comes out like dishwater and the engine wear is horrific.

Do you get any adverse effects of the methanol on the rest of the engine???

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