EGT's

Technical discussions
PhatBob
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:50 pm
Location: Newmarket/Cambridge
Contact:

Post by PhatBob »

Yep, fuel and spark are very interrelated, if you start to add more advance you will find that your lambda shows a leaner mix, so you need to add fuel, you'll keep doing this until you either: reach BLD, or peak torque (MBT), or your EGTs go to a point that you're not happy about (which is the whole topic of this discussion).

If you reach BLD then you need to address inlet charge temps (intercooling, or water/[eth|meth]anol injection), compression (static or dynamic), or easiest of all up the Octane of your base fuel.

If you reach peak torque, congratulations you've won! Now repeat it across the entire load and RPM map ;)

As for maximum EGTs, remember that aluminium melts at around ~660deg, your cylinder temperatures during combustion are always much higher than EGT (unless you've massively retarded the ignition) but they only see the peak temps for short time, as the incoming charge temps are (if intercooled correctly) close to ambient, which cools the cylinder massively. Plus you have valve seats and a water jacket to help wick a lot of the excess temps away.

So, where does that leave us? Well as stated before there is no definative EGT value, Scott has posted to spot on rules of thumb, I've seen higher EGTs and Idle, and lower at peak. But I've not seen lower at idle and higher at WOT TBH!

Really for EGT you need to place a thermocouple in or close to the inlet of the turbine housing, then you find that you have another issue to solve - the first is to get fast response you need a thin <3mm thick thermocouple which will have a limited expectancy as it will slowly ionise disolve. If you use a thick >5mm probe/Thermocouple you'll have longevity but not get the speed required for a true reading. There is a 3rd way which is a mix of both and its what we use on our systems:
Image
Which provides speed and longevity.

323ian
Posts: 2518
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:48 am
Location: Norfolk

Post by 323ian »

You guys have some incredible knowledge.
Thanks for enlightening me (a bit :? )
Really appreciate you taking the time to try and explain to me.

sdminus
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:01 am
Location: Norwich
Contact:

Post by sdminus »

Dont forget the rotaries run a tad hotter than piston motors so my temps may be a touch more toasty at high end.

Scott
"You think you have a limit, As soon you touch this limit, something happens to you; suddenly you can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct and your experience as well, you can fly very high."

PhatBob
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:50 pm
Location: Newmarket/Cambridge
Contact:

Post by PhatBob »

Yeah your figures seem to be cooler at low end RPMs and hotter at WOT. Strange things those rotaries, fun though!

Rob

323ian
Posts: 2518
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:48 am
Location: Norfolk

Post by 323ian »

OK i have my EGT gauge now.
Where is the best place to the sensor and what is the best way of doing it?
I have a tapped hole in the downpipe but i am guessing that this will be no good to put the sensor in as its to far away from the block?
Thanks.

User avatar
NikWilson
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:39 pm
Location: Dereham, Norfolk
Contact:

Post by NikWilson »

On the R34 GTR v-spec (they have an EGT gauge as standard in the MFD), the EGT sensor is in the elbow of the rear turbo.


There is a boss welded onto the elbow, then a thread tapped into it and on into the pipe with a 45% shoulder to make a seal with the EGT probe as it seats. When I put HKS elbows on my R34, a local engineering company (in Dereham) took the HKS elbow and made a replica boss as per the standard Nissan on on the standard elbow. Cost me
I would sell my soul, become your ho, be your bltch or just about anything for a 1972 Skyline GT-R KPGC 110 - The ultimate, the first and best ever Skyline GT-R with a straight 6

Link to web site:

http://www.r34gtr.piczo.com

PhatBob
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:50 pm
Location: Newmarket/Cambridge
Contact:

Post by PhatBob »

There is always a drop in temperature across the turbine, and the temperature that you read there will lag as its dampened by the mass of the turbine (it wont show the heat rise until after it has happened, and it will show a hotter reading after the the peak has occured)
Many of the OEM EGT sensors are more concerned with the operating temperature of the Catalytic converter.

For a normaly aspirated engine I always suggest a 2-3mm thermocouple in the hottest cylinder's exhaust manifold 10-15cm from the port.

The thicker TCs can be put pre-turbine, a good place to tap the bung is in the Turbine housing, just after the flange, theres plenty of meat there to tap into and you'll be reading the temperature of the combined cylinders that feed the turbine.

323ian
Posts: 2518
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:48 am
Location: Norfolk

Post by 323ian »

Bob,
I would be scared to put it pre turbo in case it ever broke and it went through and destroyed the turbo?

Nik,
What was the company who you got to do it?

User avatar
NikWilson
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:39 pm
Location: Dereham, Norfolk
Contact:

Post by NikWilson »

323ian wrote:Bob,
I would be scared to put it pre turbo in case it ever broke and it went through and destroyed the turbo?

Nik,
What was the company who you got to do it?
Ian

They are an engineering company just out of Toftwood on the RHS as you go towards Shipdam, set in a farm. I woudl have to take you there as I do not have the name or tel number. They are really good at fabrication. I still have my OEM Nissan Elbow with the boss already in!


Nik
I would sell my soul, become your ho, be your bltch or just about anything for a 1972 Skyline GT-R KPGC 110 - The ultimate, the first and best ever Skyline GT-R with a straight 6

Link to web site:

http://www.r34gtr.piczo.com

323ian
Posts: 2518
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:48 am
Location: Norfolk

Post by 323ian »

After hearing all the hassle it is to take the elbows off my engine I am proably going to stick it in the downpipe as close as i can get to the elbow now.

Post Reply