What size injectors?

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LR6GSR
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Post by LR6GSR »

hybrid calm down my friend if you take time and read the thread you will note:
1) the Injector guide is borrowed from the MLR not my calculations at all just a guide i have posted
2) you will note i recomend that injectors should be run at between 20-80% as a rule
3) BHP achieved on each car will totaly depend on state of tune boost levels who built it and detailed the engine etc.

You say your car is not 400 fair play but we have a post on this thread from Iwant1 running 560cc injectors achiving 423 BHP
the size of the injector is no guide to your cars out put, i fail to see how by my reconing your car is 400 bhp?
Have you run you car on the rollers to clarify the out put the 510cc set up is achieving on your car? 340/350 seems a fair esimate to me.
In fact on a std Evo3 turbo that must be the limit or close, it is said later turbos ie. the E6 can flow just under the 400bhp. The E9 Gt over 400bhp.

Liam :grin:

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duncan
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Post by duncan »

what have i started ?? ;)

i believe the scoobies need more fuelling to stop det so might have a different limit on the injectors than others.

I think that 740's will be the way forward for me once I get the pump and FPR uprated to give me a little more safety margin and after spending some time logging the car through different situations (ie track days)

It would be useful to know how this affects other 4 cylinder cars... ie what size injectors = what power potential

LR6GSR
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Post by LR6GSR »

A good forum descussion :-D
Of course it can be a lot of info to read through and absorb lol

Liam

hybrid dreams
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Post by hybrid dreams »

LR6GSR wrote:hybrid calm down my friend if you take time and read the thread you will note:
1) the Injector guide is borrowed from the MLR not my calculations at all just a guide i have posted
2) you will note i recomend that injectors should be run at between 20-80% as a rule
3) BHP achieved on each car will totaly depend on state of tune boost levels who built it and detailed the engine etc.

You say your car is not 400 fair play but we have a post on this thread from Iwant1 running 560cc injectors achiving 423 BHP
the size of the injector is no guide to your cars out put, i fail to see how by my reconing your car is 400 bhp?
Have you run you car on the rollers to clarify the out put the 510cc set up is achieving on your car? 340/350 seems a fair esimate to me.
In fact on a std Evo3 turbo that must be the limit or close, it is said later turbos ie. the E6 can flow just under the 400bhp. The E9 Gt over 400bhp.

Liam :grin:


I am calm dude. sorry if I came across differently. my bad. :D . Generally you can estimate how much power your car is making by using the correct BSFC....so 100% DC is just that. whether its reached at 1.3 or 1.5 bar and is the same exact power level if everything else is the same(injector size, AFR, etc). I am sorry for the misinterpretations..but by the calculations that u posted...Mine should be over or about 400bhp. I just think the calculations are off. I mean use the calculator linke I have posted and u will see what I am talking about and use bsfc .55 and 3 bar. Now as far as my car. unfortunately there is no 4wd dyno on the island. So no I have not had the car on the dyno nor can I get it to one. As far as the turbo and its compressor efficiency goes..... I would say no that its not close to maxxing out at this time. Not with the fuel that I am using. generally on 99 RON yes about 360-380bhp is about all u can get out of the evo 3 compressors on a fair tune. But the evo 3 compressor is a pretty large 40 lb/minute compressor. capable of making 400 bhp or so on the right race gas at around the 1.6 bar region. Reason why I am making so much power at 1.3 bar is the fuel that I am using. I am using 105-106 RON fuel daily, and the car is roughly tuned for it. Running 22-23 degrees of timing at that boost level. So yes I am making alot more power at my boost level than u would normally make on 99 RON fuel. so thats pretty much the difference. I expect to eventually see 400bhp out of this turbo...but considering I am still running standard headgasket, standard head (head or cams have never been off the engine) standard internals, etc etc I will not be shooting for that power level at this time. I currently have a build I am working on at the moment. Ported head, 264 cams, methanol injection setup, Eagle Rods, Wiesco pistons. Once that build is done and broke in. I will be shooting for 400 bhp on the evo 3 turbo (with a ported turbine side of course) and should be easily done without too much of an issue because according to my figures a 40 lb/minute compressor should be capable of those power figures.


Now as far as iwant1 achieving 423 bhp on 560 injectors. Well when I talk about bhp figures I talk about dyno dynamics chassis brake dynos (non momentum style) that are properly calibrated. Such as CPL racings dyno. I am not talking about dyno-jets, or momentum dynos (non-brake style) with no engine loading capabilities. Reason why of course I believe the dyno-dynamics brake dynos are the most accurate out there. Like for instance THOR racing uses dyno-jets, SCA road race and rally POS chassis dyno, and Emeralds momentum style dyno I would not trust their figures.

Alot of people may want to argue about Emeralds. But I do not like his dyno because it is not a brake dyno (or atleast the loading capabilities werent hooked up when I spoke to dave last time I was there). But basically dynos that present no engine loading capabilites use just the weight of the rollers. and the faster u spin the dyno the more your momentum is on the rollers and the more innaccurate your figures become. Which means that say a lightweight flywheel, or lighter engine reciprocating bottom end which will allow the engine to rev faster, and spin the rollers faster adding more momentum. Which on this style of dyno will show a power gain. Which is wrong of course. because u will not make power by reducing reciprocating weight. Now Emeralds dyno may be more accurate than SCCAs, or THOR's setup...but I do not personally believe that it is that extremely accurate IMO...
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hybrid dreams
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Post by hybrid dreams »

dynamix.....

your cool dude. U havent started anything bad at all. Its good to talk about things. I am always open for discussion. and hope that people dont take the things I post the wrong way.





stockcar.....

thanks for clearing that up. we were reffering to "rising rate" as two different definitions. The "rising rate" that u refer to. I have never heard of to be honest. I guess thats the difference between yank and brit terms. Its all good though. cheers :D
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LR6GSR
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Post by LR6GSR »

hybrid
You are jumping in the deep end again just go a little slower lol
You know me as i know you no harm done i know you like a debate i have read some debates you have made contributions to.
I will not enter a RR Debate on this tread as it is off topic but i do trust Emeralds figures up to the 400 BHP mark.
Lees Car Iwant1 was run at Engine Advantages on a Hofmann Dynatest Rollers please take time to ask before asumming :-D and heading into one.
I can not vouch for thier rollers as i have not used them but i am sure you may know something about them.

Liam :grin:

IWANT1
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Post by IWANT1 »

Now as far as iwant1 achieving 423 bhp on 560 injectors. Well when I talk about bhp figures I talk about dyno dynamics chassis brake dynos (non momentum style) that are properly calibrated. Such as CPL racings dyno. I am not talking about dyno-jets, or momentum dynos (non-brake style) with no engine loading capabilities. Reason why of course I believe the dyno-dynamics brake dynos are the most accurate out there. Like for instance THOR racing uses dyno-jets, SCA road race and rally POS chassis dyno, and Emeralds momentum style dyno I would not trust their figures.

so what are the thoughts on the rollers at Engine Advantages results seemed accurate on the day???

lee
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hybrid dreams
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Post by hybrid dreams »

LR6GSR wrote:hybrid
You are jumping in the deep end again just go a little slower lol
You know me as i know you no harm done i know you like a debate i have read some debates you have made contributions to.
I will not enter a RR Debate on this tread as it is off topic but i do trust Emeralds figures up to the 400 BHP mark.
Lees Car Iwant1 was run at Engine Advantages on a Hofmann Dynatest Rollers please take time to ask before asumming :-D and heading into one.
I can not vouch for thier rollers as i have not used them but i am sure you may know something about them.

Liam :grin:
u know me i dont go slow :P U have seen my debates huh? u say it like a bad thing? I aint that bad...am I ? Yes the RR debate is a bit I agree.
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hybrid dreams
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Post by hybrid dreams »

IWANT1 wrote:
Now as far as iwant1 achieving 423 bhp on 560 injectors. Well when I talk about bhp figures I talk about dyno dynamics chassis brake dynos (non momentum style) that are properly calibrated. Such as CPL racings dyno. I am not talking about dyno-jets, or momentum dynos (non-brake style) with no engine loading capabilities. Reason why of course I believe the dyno-dynamics brake dynos are the most accurate out there. Like for instance THOR racing uses dyno-jets, SCA road race and rally POS chassis dyno, and Emeralds momentum style dyno I would not trust their figures.

so what are the thoughts on the rollers at Engine Advantages results seemed accurate on the day???

lee
to be honest I dont know much about Engine Advantages. So I cannot really comment on how close or accurate they are. However I am a very dyno dynamics brake dyno fan and believe they are the most accurate for loads of reasons. Such as dyno dynamics rollers do not just use a rough calculation like 20% and add it to your WHP and give you that figure as your BHP. No the dyno dynamics rollers actually measure the amount of force of back lash/throttle lift off after a run. It actually calibrates to within a very close degree of actual drivetrain loss to give you a more accurate BHP reading. And thats not even getting into calibrations, and all the different variables it controls but again Liam is right it is off topic.

but basically this is my opinion. And in no way do I mean for you or anyone to take offense to it. so please do not take it that way. I meant no disrespect to your car or the power you have put down.

Jez
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duncan
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Post by duncan »

Lee - do you know what duty cycle % your current injectors are running at?

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