healthy debate actually and there is more to add and to answer. 5:30 start for me tomorrow actually so will have to wait until the weekend.AND, tomorrow is definitely a BIG Power Day ... more of that at the weekend also.
Maxx
Technique Post : Trail-Braking
Just getting aorund to answering follow up posts, been working 14hr days for last 4 days
Scott
Firstly, I'm not intending or planning to produce a structured "course" for you guys to follow. I was asked by Duncan if I would post some technique related stuff on this forum, similar to what i'd posted elsewhere. This one was in fact the post he originally mentioned and it was simply a case of a bit of copy+paste plus some aditing to post it here. I have since expanded on it.
Secondly, I would consider the topic of dynamic braking (all I mean by this is understanding the brake is not an on/off switch and the need to ease on and EASE OFF the brakes) as BASIC. Most of the session instructing/coaching I do is 20 minutes with a driver, never met them before that time and some are on their first track day. I would mention dynamic braking (although wouldn't use the term), telling them to ease onto the brakes ... press harder ... ease off the brakes. I would also explain (briefly) and get them to feel it (front->rear weight transfer) , and explain why. I would of course also concentrate on LINE and cover any basic errors (i.e. poor seating position etc.). If they knew the track quite well and only needed the odd pointer here and there and there was no basic problems I'd quite likely explain trail-braking and get them to try it on ONE suitable corner. Note though that this would be a) Only if I was sure they had decent brake feel and control and b) would only be turn-point trail braking (i.e. not well into the entry, or to the apex) and of course c) only if I thought it was 100% safe.
I should say this is not common with racing schools or probably many other instructors/coaches who would leave this topic until much later, and maybe even consider it as an advanced topic. I personally beleive that understanding the weight shift of a car is a fundamental. The fore and aft weight movement is part of all briefings that we do for people on experience days (98% of these have never driven on a trck before and READ NOTHING about driving technique). There is no better way IMO of really getting this message across than judicious use of trail-braking.
Note that this is just an INTRODUCTION, an awareness of weight and it's effect, plus it's only fore-aft, lateral takes a LOT more explaining/demonstrating and rarely mastered by the majority of racers.
Incidentally, don't read too much into the ARDS instructor thing. An ARDS instructor is simply someone who has raced (6-10 races), got the appropriate (racing) license grade and then applied to a Racing School to be trained as an instructor. Racing Schools charge for this and the assessment has very little to do with, and doesn't really require ANY knowledge of driving techniques or skills in getting these across. A lot of ARDS instructor work is sitting next to a customer in a car (anything from standard saloon to Ferrari/Lambo) and getting them round the track safely. This can be just a series of instructions on where to brake, turn, apex etc. As this is often done on a track with other cars doing the same thing, poss you in a Mini, them in a Ferrari, also perhaps Hi-Speed Passenger laps going on, observation and awareness are a key skill, plus reasonable communication skills. THIS is what the ARDS test assesses. I know quite a few ARDS instructors who have no idea about driving techniques and frankly are a hazard (when driving) on track. My above post would be news to many of them.
This wasn't always the case, but over the last 10 years or so, with the advent and upsurge of "Experience Days" (Drive a Ferrari etc.) then the job scope has moved away from race driver training and i'd say 95% of todays instructors have never actually had need/cause to teach anyone advanced driving techniques, so, there is no requirement to understand them.
There is a grading system from C to A which is mostly based on experience (in terms of time) but also in having a wide skill set and perhaps being a better communicator etc. Even being a Grade A instructor requires no special driving ability or coaching ability. I know many Grade A's who can't drive a race car quickly for toffee and have no coaching skills (in terms of knowledge or ability).
In general, you are more likley to find a knowledgable (in terms of technique) instructor on a trackday but equally you may not. Only about 2% or ARDS instructor EVER work on trackdays.
I know lots of trackday only drivers who know far more about driving techniques than ha]
I would suggest that people learn about there tires and what they are telling the driver about the track first.
[/quote]
Uhm, I'm not actually sure what you mean here but it sounds like it might be an advanced topic. If you have something in mind then please expand on it and I can more easily comment.
Maxx
Scott
I'm a little confused by the 2 sentences, the first suggesting the technique is advanced, the second one saying it's basic. No matter I think I get the jist of your response.sdminus wrote:considering the general driving style and driver's technical abilitys do you not think that suggesting people try advanced techniques a tad dangerous !
The technique you talk about is pretty basic ( with a little back ground knowledge) but i do feal that a general knowledge base in the average driver needs to be gained before moving on to the practice of the techniques.
Firstly, I'm not intending or planning to produce a structured "course" for you guys to follow. I was asked by Duncan if I would post some technique related stuff on this forum, similar to what i'd posted elsewhere. This one was in fact the post he originally mentioned and it was simply a case of a bit of copy+paste plus some aditing to post it here. I have since expanded on it.
Secondly, I would consider the topic of dynamic braking (all I mean by this is understanding the brake is not an on/off switch and the need to ease on and EASE OFF the brakes) as BASIC. Most of the session instructing/coaching I do is 20 minutes with a driver, never met them before that time and some are on their first track day. I would mention dynamic braking (although wouldn't use the term), telling them to ease onto the brakes ... press harder ... ease off the brakes. I would also explain (briefly) and get them to feel it (front->rear weight transfer) , and explain why. I would of course also concentrate on LINE and cover any basic errors (i.e. poor seating position etc.). If they knew the track quite well and only needed the odd pointer here and there and there was no basic problems I'd quite likely explain trail-braking and get them to try it on ONE suitable corner. Note though that this would be a) Only if I was sure they had decent brake feel and control and b) would only be turn-point trail braking (i.e. not well into the entry, or to the apex) and of course c) only if I thought it was 100% safe.
I should say this is not common with racing schools or probably many other instructors/coaches who would leave this topic until much later, and maybe even consider it as an advanced topic. I personally beleive that understanding the weight shift of a car is a fundamental. The fore and aft weight movement is part of all briefings that we do for people on experience days (98% of these have never driven on a trck before and READ NOTHING about driving technique). There is no better way IMO of really getting this message across than judicious use of trail-braking.
Note that this is just an INTRODUCTION, an awareness of weight and it's effect, plus it's only fore-aft, lateral takes a LOT more explaining/demonstrating and rarely mastered by the majority of racers.
As Duncan said, I do run "physical" classes, it's my job, and have spent much of the last 17 year doing it. I've also done countless forum posts, emails, PMs etc. which have generally helped people understand a certain topic and it's just another aspect of how I like to do things. I've rarely seen other driver coaches posting in this way however, we generally don't get a lot of time but I enjoy reading forums so occasionaly, if time allows, I give a bit back.You are a ARDS instructor may be you should run a master class or run one on the track.
Incidentally, don't read too much into the ARDS instructor thing. An ARDS instructor is simply someone who has raced (6-10 races), got the appropriate (racing) license grade and then applied to a Racing School to be trained as an instructor. Racing Schools charge for this and the assessment has very little to do with, and doesn't really require ANY knowledge of driving techniques or skills in getting these across. A lot of ARDS instructor work is sitting next to a customer in a car (anything from standard saloon to Ferrari/Lambo) and getting them round the track safely. This can be just a series of instructions on where to brake, turn, apex etc. As this is often done on a track with other cars doing the same thing, poss you in a Mini, them in a Ferrari, also perhaps Hi-Speed Passenger laps going on, observation and awareness are a key skill, plus reasonable communication skills. THIS is what the ARDS test assesses. I know quite a few ARDS instructors who have no idea about driving techniques and frankly are a hazard (when driving) on track. My above post would be news to many of them.
This wasn't always the case, but over the last 10 years or so, with the advent and upsurge of "Experience Days" (Drive a Ferrari etc.) then the job scope has moved away from race driver training and i'd say 95% of todays instructors have never actually had need/cause to teach anyone advanced driving techniques, so, there is no requirement to understand them.
There is a grading system from C to A which is mostly based on experience (in terms of time) but also in having a wide skill set and perhaps being a better communicator etc. Even being a Grade A instructor requires no special driving ability or coaching ability. I know many Grade A's who can't drive a race car quickly for toffee and have no coaching skills (in terms of knowledge or ability).
In general, you are more likley to find a knowledgable (in terms of technique) instructor on a trackday but equally you may not. Only about 2% or ARDS instructor EVER work on trackdays.
I know lots of trackday only drivers who know far more about driving techniques than ha]
I would suggest that people learn about there tires and what they are telling the driver about the track first.
[/quote]
Uhm, I'm not actually sure what you mean here but it sounds like it might be an advanced topic. If you have something in mind then please expand on it and I can more easily comment.
Maxx
Gerry,Gerry H wrote:Excelent write ups and very good reading. More topics would be most welcome particularly the technique of left foot braking, it's benefits, when to use it and when not to.
And for those who've never had an automatic, where to practice it for a first time
Thanks, glad you enjoyed the post, and yes, more will follow
Ah, LFB (left-foot braking) how this keeps coming up. Well, if you've read the above post by now you will know that I consider the initial topic as a fairly BASIC principle of required understanding in order to potentially drive quickly on track. I personally (and this is where I think all schools/coaches would agree) consider LFB and advanced topic.
Whats more I consider it a topic only really relevant to someone who is already of quite a high level in understanding and skill in track driving at the limit. It can take years to master the skill to brake and enter a corner REALLY well and i've never sat next to anyone, including race winning drivers, who couldn't improve this skill sufficiently to outweight any time advantage they'd get from LFB.
Now, there are exceptions. You generally only use LFB when you either need to minimise the delay between brake and gas (moving the foot) or need to keep both brake AND gas on at the same time. Why would you want the later, only reason I know is to ensure your Turbo keeps spinning, this will eat brake pads but if they can last the race then thats all you need from them. Minimising the time between brake and gas is a very, very minor benefit and not really possible if a gear change is required (is possible, but very tough to learn and carry out).
An example where you might use it is in a fast sweeper where you are starting to understeer mid-corner, just resting your left foot on the brake would move a little more weight forward and negate the understeer without losing any real stability. Easing off the gas would work also but you are likley to get a little instability and POSSIBLY lose an extra few 100ths.
Now, if we are talking loose-surface rallying, which I also teach then thats another topic, prob even one I would not even consider trying to text-teach!
I rarely if ever use LFB on track. I have spent quite some time doing it in rallying and on country roads so have developed a reasonable feel in my left foot but I don't feel it can gain me ANYTHING on track, if I did, I would practice it and use it.
As someone who rarely if ever uses it, it would be contradictory of me to try and teach it, if you are really interested in learning it, this is the place to go : http://www.carlimits.com It's run by ex F1 Test Driver Andrew Walsh who does use it extensively, mostly as it was the "done thing" in F1 and of course still is, as well as many Single-Seater formula.
The problem with practicing it on the road is that it's easy to make an error. I used to just lightly drag the brake a little into corners on country lanes, just to get the feel. Problem is, if you go round a bend and there is a parked car/tractor .. what do you do! probably you will push the brake like a clutch and get into trouble that way, if you come off the brake, switch feet and brake as normal, this will take extra time and again, your in trouble. My advice is usually don't bother at all or keep it for the track.
Maxx
Ian,
Try remembering what you did on 5th May last year? then think of a specific day that does stick in your memory, the difference between the two was the LEVEL OF EMOTION felt at the time. If I was to get you to brake later for Redgate than you'd ever braked before, holding the brake on entry so you turn in quicker and more stable than ever before and be able to get on the power earlier PLUS i've explained why (which you may have not fully understood at the time) this created a double/triple whammy of emnotion that makes that "lesson" stick.
Anyway, in saying that, if time allows I will post a very basic "Basics Guide" and, as I've replied above, whilst trail-braking FULLY might be considered a bit advanced the understanding of fore-aft weight transfer is right there at the BASICS.
If you are attending a trackday anytime, drop me a PM or EMAIL and I can advise where best to maybe try a bit of trail-braking.
One thing I would say here as a BASIC principle, DON'T keep driving round doing the same things hoping to get quicker and quicker by braking later and later.
Maxx
Doesn't sound silly but it is a question of time and the fact that it's tough to do "text only". Much of instruction is a mix of direction, explantion and demonstration and with just the one (explanation), even if it's fully understand is just not effective.323ian wrote:OK this may sound silly Malcolm but how about a guide of basic things that you feel is that absolute fundamentals of driving quickly?
I mean things such as a guide which is slightly above a beginners guide but below a seasoned racers guide??
Trail braking for me is probably ahead of where my driving is currently.
Things such as hand position, what to look for on a track, how and when to accelerate out of a corner etc etc?
I have never had any official training on driving quickly and have only learnt what i have from doing trackdays so experience such as yours would be most welcome mate?
Try remembering what you did on 5th May last year? then think of a specific day that does stick in your memory, the difference between the two was the LEVEL OF EMOTION felt at the time. If I was to get you to brake later for Redgate than you'd ever braked before, holding the brake on entry so you turn in quicker and more stable than ever before and be able to get on the power earlier PLUS i've explained why (which you may have not fully understood at the time) this created a double/triple whammy of emnotion that makes that "lesson" stick.
Anyway, in saying that, if time allows I will post a very basic "Basics Guide" and, as I've replied above, whilst trail-braking FULLY might be considered a bit advanced the understanding of fore-aft weight transfer is right there at the BASICS.
If you are attending a trackday anytime, drop me a PM or EMAIL and I can advise where best to maybe try a bit of trail-braking.
One thing I would say here as a BASIC principle, DON'T keep driving round doing the same things hoping to get quicker and quicker by braking later and later.
Maxx
Scott
Firstly (and totally irrelevantly in my view) the 90%/10% statement is incorrect. The true, scientific situation is that you either get a little more than 100% when tyre "grip" performance is split between tasks or a little less than 100%. I truly cannot remember which it is, I think it's more but it's not stopped me going fast and/or exploiting the full amount of grip available to me. The REAL POINT is that asking the tyre to do more of one thing means it has less ability to do another. If you apply the gas in the middle of a corner in a FWD car and the car starts to understeer you have either got to back off the gas or unwind the lock. In a RWD car it is much more complexed but I'm not getting into that here.
Secondly, I have met lots of drivers who I've spoken to about the traction budget, they proudly tell me they know all about it and they indeed can explain it to me fully. They say they drive in accordance with it, so they are able to turn in and use pretty much the maximum traction budget AVAILABLE TO THEM. So, they tell me they can't go any quicker. I've even seen data traces that they say proves it. I then explain what you know by now that I consider a BASIC understanding, and that is that the more weight you place on a tyre the more grip you get (up to a certain level). If you can turn in at 70mph with 50:50 weight balance, how much quicker could you turn-in with a reasonably hard-braking approach/turn-in of 80:20 ? well, substantially quicker obviously, but I have no idea how much, nor do I particular care. What I prefer to do is spend my time refining my speed sensing and grip sensing awareness with this fact in mind, and having a jolly good time doing it.
Maxx
Sorry to pick up on another of your posts but I think I need to, in order to clear something up.sdminus wrote:That statement is incorrect.
The tyre will only do so much work.
So if the tyre is rated at 1G it will only work upto 1G. ie 1G = 100 % work rate
So if you brake for 0.9 G or 90% you can turn for 0.1 G or 10% etc
Scott
Firstly (and totally irrelevantly in my view) the 90%/10% statement is incorrect. The true, scientific situation is that you either get a little more than 100% when tyre "grip" performance is split between tasks or a little less than 100%. I truly cannot remember which it is, I think it's more but it's not stopped me going fast and/or exploiting the full amount of grip available to me. The REAL POINT is that asking the tyre to do more of one thing means it has less ability to do another. If you apply the gas in the middle of a corner in a FWD car and the car starts to understeer you have either got to back off the gas or unwind the lock. In a RWD car it is much more complexed but I'm not getting into that here.
Secondly, I have met lots of drivers who I've spoken to about the traction budget, they proudly tell me they know all about it and they indeed can explain it to me fully. They say they drive in accordance with it, so they are able to turn in and use pretty much the maximum traction budget AVAILABLE TO THEM. So, they tell me they can't go any quicker. I've even seen data traces that they say proves it. I then explain what you know by now that I consider a BASIC understanding, and that is that the more weight you place on a tyre the more grip you get (up to a certain level). If you can turn in at 70mph with 50:50 weight balance, how much quicker could you turn-in with a reasonably hard-braking approach/turn-in of 80:20 ? well, substantially quicker obviously, but I have no idea how much, nor do I particular care. What I prefer to do is spend my time refining my speed sensing and grip sensing awareness with this fact in mind, and having a jolly good time doing it.
Maxx
What a great read. I have nothing sensible to input at this point but thought I would add my enthusiastic 'thanks' so far :thumb:
http://www.auto-genie.co.uk
07733 527430
stuart@auto-genie.co.uk
Valeting, detailing and undersealing
07733 527430
stuart@auto-genie.co.uk
Valeting, detailing and undersealing
Thanks so much mate, i know it must be so hard to explain what you are trying to get across in text form.
Going back to the part of what you have said about trail braking i was nearly failed on my ARDS test due to trailing the brake into the corner, the examiner said it is a habit which needs to stop, he said that the wheel must be pointing directly ahead while braking and then let off the brake at the same time you begin to turn.
You really must have such a great job, i cant think of anything better to bring the money in than blast round a track each day, living the dream comes to mind!! :lol:
Thanks for all the input.
Going back to the part of what you have said about trail braking i was nearly failed on my ARDS test due to trailing the brake into the corner, the examiner said it is a habit which needs to stop, he said that the wheel must be pointing directly ahead while braking and then let off the brake at the same time you begin to turn.
You really must have such a great job, i cant think of anything better to bring the money in than blast round a track each day, living the dream comes to mind!! :lol:
Thanks for all the input.
Ian,
What utter rubbish. BUT it does show you that EVEN ARDS ASSESSORS do not need to know anything about advanced driving techniques and this one clearly does not. BUT, conversley, they don't need to. All they are required to do is to check that you can drive 3 laps un-prompted in a reasonably consistent fashion while being observant of whats around you, and you can pass the written test. It's interesting to note that ARDS stands for the "Association of Racing Driver Schools" and the directors of ARDS are the various owners of these "Schools" who charge you323ian wrote:Thanks so much mate, i know it must be so hard to explain what you are trying to get across in text form.
Going back to the part of what you have said about trail braking i was nearly failed on my ARDS test due to trailing the brake into the corner, the examiner said it is a habit which needs to stop, he said that the wheel must be pointing directly ahead while braking and then let off the brake at the same time you begin to turn.
I initially thought that your title 'trail braking' was going to be about using a light brake application to shift weight mid-corner rather than modulated brake pressure. I've been a member of LoT for a couple of years, although I have an Impreza, and have been on one of Andy Walsh's driving days and a couple of his LoT days, at North Weald. I've even bought his video where he shows LFB but iirc, he says it's of no real benefit.Maxx wrote: Ah, LFB (left-foot braking) how this keeps coming up. Well, if you've read the above post by now you will know that I consider the initial topic as a fairly BASIC principle of required understanding in order to potentially drive quickly on track. I personally (and this is where I think all schools/coaches would agree) consider LFB and advanced topic.
Whats more I consider it a topic only really relevant to someone who is already of quite a high level in understanding and skill in track driving at the limit. It can take years to master the skill to brake and enter a corner REALLY well and i've never sat next to anyone, including race winning drivers, who couldn't improve this skill sufficiently to outweight any time advantage they'd get from LFB.
Now, there are exceptions. You generally only use LFB when you either need to minimise the delay between brake and gas (moving the foot) or need to keep both brake AND gas on at the same time. Why would you want the later, only reason I know is to ensure your Turbo keeps spinning, this will eat brake pads but if they can last the race then thats all you need from them. Minimising the time between brake and gas is a very, very minor benefit and not really possible if a gear change is required (is possible, but very tough to learn and carry out).
An example where you might use it is in a fast sweeper where you are starting to understeer mid-corner, just resting your left foot on the brake would move a little more weight forward and negate the understeer without losing any real stability. Easing off the gas would work also but you are likley to get a little instability and POSSIBLY lose an extra few 100ths.
Now, if we are talking loose-surface rallying, which I also teach then thats another topic, prob even one I would not even consider trying to text-teach!
I rarely if ever use LFB on track. I have spent quite some time doing it in rallying and on country roads so have developed a reasonable feel in my left foot but I don't feel it can gain me ANYTHING on track, if I did, I would practice it and use it.
As someone who rarely if ever uses it, it would be contradictory of me to try and teach it, if you are really interested in learning it, this is the place to go : http://www.carlimits.com It's run by ex F1 Test Driver Andrew Walsh who does use it extensively, mostly as it was the "done thing" in F1 and of course still is, as well as many Single-Seater formula.
The problem with practicing it on the road is that it's easy to make an error. I used to just lightly drag the brake a little into corners on country lanes, just to get the feel. Problem is, if you go round a bend and there is a parked car/tractor .. what do you do! probably you will push the brake like a clutch and get into trouble that way, if you come off the brake, switch feet and brake as normal, this will take extra time and again, your in trouble. My advice is usually don't bother at all or keep it for the track.
Maxx
My interest in LFB is quite selfish
I've had a few automatics and always used LFB on the road, mainly to stop my left leg going to sleep and found brake response time much quicker with the left foot covering the brake pedal. As I said, I have a turbo Impreza and find that it can 'judder' on light lift, which is most unwelcome on sweeping bends when trying to reduce oversteer. The judder is caused by the dumped air reversing across the MAF, resulting in fuel cut, if that makes sense. The result is weight being shifted fore and aft quite rapidly ala kangaroo style, or that's what it feels like. Maybe I'd be better off sorting the dump valve rather than learning a questionable technique?