I was 'very' subtleMonster wrote:I don't think he did actually, unless I was too voodoo'd up to notice
Driver training day @ Snett with Malc (Maxx)
What an interesting read 
I am delighted that you got some tangible benefits from this Christian, and I'm also glad that Maxx was a worthy recommendation (Knew you wouldn't let anyone down Malcolm
)
To be able to develop yourself in such an expedient fashion, and for that development to become a permanent (with the necessary refreshers) 'boost' to driver performance........it's just got to be some of the best value for money going.
I am delighted that you got some tangible benefits from this Christian, and I'm also glad that Maxx was a worthy recommendation (Knew you wouldn't let anyone down Malcolm
)To be able to develop yourself in such an expedient fashion, and for that development to become a permanent (with the necessary refreshers) 'boost' to driver performance........it's just got to be some of the best value for money going.
http://www.auto-genie.co.uk
07733 527430
stuart@auto-genie.co.uk
Valeting, detailing and undersealing
07733 527430
stuart@auto-genie.co.uk
Valeting, detailing and undersealing
Guys,
Sorry it's taken a while to get back to this. I just got hit with my busiest 'at track' period I remember for a long time. Was actually 6 days straight at the track, 5 days straight at different tracks, it reads "Silv (racing), Donni (data), Snett (Christian), Oulton (ET guy ... Elise Trophy, not an Alien) and Rockingham. Most work days tend to lead to at least another day of follow up and such so only just catching up (but not really!).
So, I did a quick cast of eye over the data and for comparison I processed one of Christians early laps for comparison. Now, if you were to watch this video you would have said that it looks a very clean and quick lap, no traffic. The views not great as I'd not tweaked the camera at that stage and was getting white balance issues.
This was the fastest, even of the half dozen or so that followed in the next session with me alongside giving pointers ... and was a 2:17.66.
Take a look and see what you think (btw, this one is unlisted as it's only really meant to apply to this thread and for demo purposes).
http://youtu.be/n4EDTn3TuDg
Now, I know I posted this earlier and no real NEED to watch it again but it's probably worthwhile after watching the above one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcQ-JzGG7e4
There is 7.21 secs difference between the 2 laps and the second video had 75kgs of ballast (me) which conservatively costs about 1.8 secs (rule of thumb is minimum 0.10 sec per 10kgs per minute).
So, lets looks at a few stats.
1) Riches T1, min speed went up from 70 to 81.7 in the videos (83.4 best)
2) Braking point 60mtrs later for T1 (but also braking lighter)
3) Max speed in middle of Coram went from 95 to 102, sector time almost 1 sec quicker (and that was a toughie)
4) Max speed before Esses went from 128 to 134 and braking 70mtrs later (and softer)
5) Travelled 11mtrs less (most of that ~40mph) .. I was 6mtrs less still.
6) Biggest time savers - Riches 1.6, 2nd h/p (Agostini) and Hamilton 1.5
Just thought you'd be interested in the stats. Note that in some instances where I mention braking later and carrying more speed in ..... it's not as simple as that, lots of stuff went on before that to allow that to be possible.
All on the stats for now.
Malc
Sorry it's taken a while to get back to this. I just got hit with my busiest 'at track' period I remember for a long time. Was actually 6 days straight at the track, 5 days straight at different tracks, it reads "Silv (racing), Donni (data), Snett (Christian), Oulton (ET guy ... Elise Trophy, not an Alien) and Rockingham. Most work days tend to lead to at least another day of follow up and such so only just catching up (but not really!).
So, I did a quick cast of eye over the data and for comparison I processed one of Christians early laps for comparison. Now, if you were to watch this video you would have said that it looks a very clean and quick lap, no traffic. The views not great as I'd not tweaked the camera at that stage and was getting white balance issues.
This was the fastest, even of the half dozen or so that followed in the next session with me alongside giving pointers ... and was a 2:17.66.
Take a look and see what you think (btw, this one is unlisted as it's only really meant to apply to this thread and for demo purposes).
http://youtu.be/n4EDTn3TuDg
Now, I know I posted this earlier and no real NEED to watch it again but it's probably worthwhile after watching the above one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcQ-JzGG7e4
There is 7.21 secs difference between the 2 laps and the second video had 75kgs of ballast (me) which conservatively costs about 1.8 secs (rule of thumb is minimum 0.10 sec per 10kgs per minute).
So, lets looks at a few stats.
1) Riches T1, min speed went up from 70 to 81.7 in the videos (83.4 best)
2) Braking point 60mtrs later for T1 (but also braking lighter)
3) Max speed in middle of Coram went from 95 to 102, sector time almost 1 sec quicker (and that was a toughie)
4) Max speed before Esses went from 128 to 134 and braking 70mtrs later (and softer)
5) Travelled 11mtrs less (most of that ~40mph) .. I was 6mtrs less still.
6) Biggest time savers - Riches 1.6, 2nd h/p (Agostini) and Hamilton 1.5
Just thought you'd be interested in the stats. Note that in some instances where I mention braking later and carrying more speed in ..... it's not as simple as that, lots of stuff went on before that to allow that to be possible.
All on the stats for now.
Malc
I also wanted to say a bit about the day itself and Christian.
I think he was taken aback a little when I first tapped him on the shoulder and he probably thought "who's this old boy with the grey beard" LOL, well it's a stressful job I do and even though i'm only 35 I do look a tad older < I may have mistyped my age! >.
Anyway, first thing I did when Christian went off for the briefing was a) fit the data/video? b) fit the intercom? or c) take photos of the car?
It was of course c) you don't do what I do without loving cars and this was a beaut, I almost got to race one back in about 1993 with Rob Squires in the Esso Saloon Car Championship (anyone remember it, it was bright orange), instead I ended up in and Astra GTE, been festering over that ever since.
So, I sent Christian out to do some laps to get himself warmed up. I cant imagine anything worse than having to do that with a strange instructor next to you, much better to get settled first. In truth I take things fairly steady for the first session, just pointed out a few line issues. If you've seen the fast lap you might have wondered why we take such a shallow line into the hairpins. Thing is for a 40mph exit you are going to get out of it pretty quickly in most cars and even if you can get out with 3-4mph more on a traditional line wind resistance will take over and that will disappear well before the next corner BUT, if you can travel TWO METRES less in a 40mph turn you save 0.10 ... just like that, and these shallow lines can save 6-8 depending on how traditional a line you take, so potentially 0.4 secs.
As for Christian I think it's fair to say he was pretty good already, certainly well ahead of most of the trackday drivers I have sat with and better than some of the race drivers, it wasn't a surprise to learn therefore that he had done the same Jim Russell course as I did in 1997 and he had won his first race (which takes place at the end of the course).
I did mine in 1990 and could only finish 2nd
The good news was he had good car control, even though he might not have understood what was happening with the weight and how to use it, he MUST be feeling it to drive like that. The bad news was that I would need to work hard to gain significant time.
As it turned out, and i'm not renowned for Anal Smoke Blowing he was a great "student", so keen to learn that he never let me out of the car for the rest of the day and even at 4:40 with 20 minutes to go he wanted to go out and work more on Coram.
Was a great day and loved the car, more than I thought I would driving wise, felt lighter than it really is and the front end was very good fot this type of car.
I did a few laps myself, shame that none were without traffic but I did a quick hack and found 4 bits to stitch together to make a 2:10, probably little to differentiate from Christians and the fact that he had matched the time by the end of the day is testament to how well he drove. Specifically I was a little better through Agostini and Hamilton (0.3) and just 0.07 better through Coram (very impressive from Christian as [without boasting] most people dont get that close) and he was a smidge quicker everywhere else including almost 0.2 at Riches which to my knowledge has never happened before .. I only did 4 flying laps though ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNbUTZbXfzw
That's probably all I'm going to get the time to do, have had a number of emails back and forth with Christian regarding setup and more time will come from this than winding the boost up, do both and who know whats times could be achieved.
As an indication, the tyres/setup are only giving us 1.1g of cornering capability, I'd expect nearer 1.3 with a really good setup (not sure about the tyres though, certainly see this on 888s). A slick with decent setup would give 1.5. Get in/through and out of a corner in a car with that much power and you are going to hang onto it for a long time down the straights, seconds would drop off.
Malc
I think he was taken aback a little when I first tapped him on the shoulder and he probably thought "who's this old boy with the grey beard" LOL, well it's a stressful job I do and even though i'm only 35 I do look a tad older < I may have mistyped my age! >.
Anyway, first thing I did when Christian went off for the briefing was a) fit the data/video? b) fit the intercom? or c) take photos of the car?
It was of course c) you don't do what I do without loving cars and this was a beaut, I almost got to race one back in about 1993 with Rob Squires in the Esso Saloon Car Championship (anyone remember it, it was bright orange), instead I ended up in and Astra GTE, been festering over that ever since.
So, I sent Christian out to do some laps to get himself warmed up. I cant imagine anything worse than having to do that with a strange instructor next to you, much better to get settled first. In truth I take things fairly steady for the first session, just pointed out a few line issues. If you've seen the fast lap you might have wondered why we take such a shallow line into the hairpins. Thing is for a 40mph exit you are going to get out of it pretty quickly in most cars and even if you can get out with 3-4mph more on a traditional line wind resistance will take over and that will disappear well before the next corner BUT, if you can travel TWO METRES less in a 40mph turn you save 0.10 ... just like that, and these shallow lines can save 6-8 depending on how traditional a line you take, so potentially 0.4 secs.
As for Christian I think it's fair to say he was pretty good already, certainly well ahead of most of the trackday drivers I have sat with and better than some of the race drivers, it wasn't a surprise to learn therefore that he had done the same Jim Russell course as I did in 1997 and he had won his first race (which takes place at the end of the course).
I did mine in 1990 and could only finish 2nd
The good news was he had good car control, even though he might not have understood what was happening with the weight and how to use it, he MUST be feeling it to drive like that. The bad news was that I would need to work hard to gain significant time.
As it turned out, and i'm not renowned for Anal Smoke Blowing he was a great "student", so keen to learn that he never let me out of the car for the rest of the day and even at 4:40 with 20 minutes to go he wanted to go out and work more on Coram.
Was a great day and loved the car, more than I thought I would driving wise, felt lighter than it really is and the front end was very good fot this type of car.
I did a few laps myself, shame that none were without traffic but I did a quick hack and found 4 bits to stitch together to make a 2:10, probably little to differentiate from Christians and the fact that he had matched the time by the end of the day is testament to how well he drove. Specifically I was a little better through Agostini and Hamilton (0.3) and just 0.07 better through Coram (very impressive from Christian as [without boasting] most people dont get that close) and he was a smidge quicker everywhere else including almost 0.2 at Riches which to my knowledge has never happened before .. I only did 4 flying laps though ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNbUTZbXfzw
That's probably all I'm going to get the time to do, have had a number of emails back and forth with Christian regarding setup and more time will come from this than winding the boost up, do both and who know whats times could be achieved.
As an indication, the tyres/setup are only giving us 1.1g of cornering capability, I'd expect nearer 1.3 with a really good setup (not sure about the tyres though, certainly see this on 888s). A slick with decent setup would give 1.5. Get in/through and out of a corner in a car with that much power and you are going to hang onto it for a long time down the straights, seconds would drop off.
Malc
Nice write up Malc........really enjoyed this thread and so pleased that it went well for Christian, and that it worked out well for all concerned. I loved the time and tips we shared years ago and would have no concerns repeating that if I ever get back into circuit stuff.
http://www.auto-genie.co.uk
07733 527430
stuart@auto-genie.co.uk
Valeting, detailing and undersealing
07733 527430
stuart@auto-genie.co.uk
Valeting, detailing and undersealing
It's not just a line issue Tommy, you have to create a weight shift in the middle so you don't scrub speed on the exit, to do that you need to be at zero, or trailing throttle and add a bit more lock (pinch the apex) about half way round. The other benefit of the shallow line is you can brake all the way to the inside curb (leave 1/2 a cars width though so you have room to do the above).Tommy wrote:Great reading Malc. After reviewing the vids and my own I will have to try the shallow hairpin entries. I couldn't have gone wider!
Malc
-
Monster
- Posts: 1150
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- Location: In the pub, err, I mean working late....
Great write up Malc, that analysis of times and speeds etc is really useful. Also interesting to see where you were making better time, I'm going to study that in a bit more detail and I think I definately need to practice my hairpins more. Also interesting how much time a passenger adds to a lap, I'm surprised by that but when you think about it there is a lot of weight there (esp if I'm the pax )
Also interesting on the cornering G info - the Khumos feel to me to be as good as the 888s but from what you were saying I think I'll give Mich pilot Sport Cups a go next (now actually as n/s rear khumo is ready for the bin )
Sorry to have made you keep coming with me lol, it's testament to how much I was enjoying myself and how much I was learning!
The follow up mails on set up have also been very useful and also appreciated as of course it's over and above the training day.
Look forward to speaking to you about the datalogging stuff....
)Also interesting on the cornering G info - the Khumos feel to me to be as good as the 888s but from what you were saying I think I'll give Mich pilot Sport Cups a go next (now actually as n/s rear khumo is ready for the bin
)Sorry to have made you keep coming with me lol, it's testament to how much I was enjoying myself and how much I was learning!
The follow up mails on set up have also been very useful and also appreciated as of course it's over and above the training day.
Look forward to speaking to you about the datalogging stuff....
That's very conservative. F1 teams/commentators work on around 0.25 sec per 10kgs per minute. Oddly as I was typing this watching FP3 from Catalunya Anthony Davidson gave the cost as 0.35 per 10kgs per lap. Laptime is around 80 secs so that's 0.2625.Monster wrote:Great write up Malc, that analysis of times and speeds etc is really useful. Also interesting to see where you were making better time, I'm going to study that in a bit more detail and I think I definately need to practice my hairpins more. Also interesting how much time a passenger adds to a lap, I'm surprised by that but when you think about it there is a lot of weight there (esp if I'm the pax
I reality it differs by track, biggest cost is braking and acceleration, corner speeds tend not to differ too much, there more weight to corner but also more weight on the tyre, which gives more grip. What does make a difference in centre of gravity. If you have a high CoG then car weight makes a bigger difference to mid-corner speeds.
I've also found other variations by track, Rockingham costs very little, that is becuase it is anti-clockwise and a left seat passenger helps cornering, in some cases achieving slightly higher cornering speeds. Doesn't effect F1 cars of course.
I suspect it was nearer 0.2 secs per 10kgs per minute cost with me being in the car so 3.25 secs per lap.
Malcolm